A rant about counseling
There is so much wrong with secular counseling in our country. I know that I am no expert on the situation and that I really can’t offer many solutions, but here are a few thoughts that you might want to know.
1. First off, let’s start with an unbiblical approach. Anyone in the counseling profession has heard statements like “we don’t have bad people, we have good people with bad problems”. Really? Good? I’m surprised at how many Christian counselors will try at tell you the same thing despite the Bible saying that there is none that is righteous. I’ve heard a Christian counselor tell me (and others say the same thing) that when God looked on man, He saw that everything was good. Therefore, man is born good. Okay, maybe if a man was born to Adam and woman before the fall, then that child would be born good. But we have no record of such child. All we have are children born after the fall and therefore children are born sinners, not born good.
Think about this. Cain was born into a world that was the least affected by sin and was born to parents who were the least affected by sin, and he still became a murderer. He wasn’t a good guy with bad problems, he was a born monster of iniquity just like everyone since then save One. Because of this foundation that counseling is so falsely set upon, all that counseling does is encourage, encourage, encourage.
According to secular counselors the biggest sin that you can commit is to hurt a person’s self-image. If you put doubt in their confidence then you might as well offer them a gun for suicide.
This is ANTI-GOSPEL. If you tell a guy that he’s all good, then what does he need Christ for to enter heaven. He’s a good person who has an alcohol problem. He’s a good person who has difficulty in avoiding temptation to abuse his children. He’s a good person who happens to also be a registered sex offender. No, you aren’t a good person, you are a person that has known nothing but sin. You don’t even know what a good person looks like and if you keep listening to the secular counselors, you’ll never find Him.
2. I did a little research tonight and found out that America spends about $25 Billion on mental health services if I read this information correctly. (http://mentalhealth.samhsa.gov/databases/databases_exe.asp?D1=&Type=PC&Myassign=list) I know that it’s up for debate at what a success is in the counseling world, but let’s just say that their are 250,000 people that have successful counseling and have their mental health problems under control. 25,000,000,000 dollars on 250,000 people = $100,000 per success. Hmm. I don’t really know what to do with this information, I just thought it was interesting. Maybe coupling it with the next point might do something for you.
3. If counselors were doing their jobs then they would run out of clients, so I think that sometimes they don’t try as hard to fix their clients. I know that’s a harsh statement, but let me explain. If I had a client and I really enjoy meeting with him, then I will continue to meet with him if he needs assistance or not. It’s easy money. I get to sit down with a man who no longer needs counseling and talk with him for an hour and get paid (usually by the government) to do it.
Most jobs in America are based on performance. If I work at as a dishwasher, I get paid to successfully wash dishes. If I don’t, I get fired. If I work for a help desk, I get paid to successfully handle questions. I could go on and on with jobs like this. But a counselor does not get paid to successfully handle problems, he gets paid to meet with clients. If he doesn’t meet with clients, he doesn’t get paid.
No counselor would ever admit this even to themselves, but if my paycheck depends on whether or not I’m meeting with a client and I’m running low on clients, I’m not urgently trying to help with their problems and lose my client. From my very limited experience I know of several occasions where clients were dropped and kept not because of their performance, but on the basis of the counselor’s client number. I know of clients who were dropped because their government funding ran out.
Like I said, I don’t have any solutions, but maybe you do, I’d like to read them.
NN
One Solution is to put my McDonald’s post up. That way I wont need any money for counseling….that’s all I’ve got right now though.
you obviously have never been a counselor, and judging by the large number of grammatical errors, I can see why. You do have a good point in that we counselor would never admit that we were done with a client. But what you must not understand is that often times clients continue with therapy long after it is necessary, there is great pressure from higher ups to solicit and continue therapy.
I also agree that a ton of money is spent on and for counseling, but until the judicial system comes up with other forms of consequences for offenders, we’re stuck. I’ve never been a secular counselor, but have been almost every other type for the past twenty years.
I have been a counselor for a few years so I guess great intelligence is not required.
I really had trouble reading your post clearly. I don’t know what you mean by “pressure from the higher ups to solicit and continue therapy.” Who are the higher ups? Do you mean judical officials or the counseling company? In my limited experience the counselor’s opinion held a lot of weight in both instances.
If you have 20 years of experience your opinion is welcome so please clarify.
I have to throw in my opinion. You actually know me and went to school with me, although we were not close friends. You know my heart and hopefully my character. But I must say that I have some disagreements with your post. My first is the arguement about secular counselors. I am not a secular counselor but I have worked with several. Granted not all are of high ethics and morals but many are. Of the ones I have worked with, they are in the field for the client not the money. Despite popular belief, counselors do not frequently make lots of money. For having a master’s degree, the average counselor, especially those not in private practice, make far less than others with same education level. Now I say that not to say that there are not those who pursue the profession for the benefit to them. However, anyone who would want to hear the sorrow and despair of humanity and be exposed to hearing and seeing the pain caused by other people’s sins and the realizing their (the client’s) sins for the gain of the counselor is a person of deep pathology. (Hopefully that makes sense!) I am not naive to believe that those counselors do not exist. But it is dangerous to convey your opinion in the fashion of all secular counselors. Or at least this is how I interpreted your comments. Secondly, I want to ask a question. Is good and righteous always the same thing? I work in a drug and alcohol treatment center that is Christian, in fact very Christian. I believe beyond a shadow of doubt that the alcoholic is good but not righteous. I believe that there is a difference. I believe that it is important and essential to recovery of any issue is for the client to take full ownership of their wrong doing. I would believe that God looks upon the wrong doing yet sees the one whom He created in His image. He does not take the consequences away but I know He sees the deeper heart and the true man or woman he created. Third, I want to say that the amount of money spent on mental health is astounding, however, their are people that are hurting and trying to make life different for themselves and their families. The cost of treatment is really high but the results can be worth far more. If it’s my family, I want the money to be spent to enable their healing. Last thing, it could be helpful to read the ethic code of American Counselors Association or American Marriage and Family Therapy Association and see that all counselors are to abide by an ethical code. If you know that there are counselors not abiding by thei given code of ethics, then call their board of licensure and report them. That is one solution. Another would be get into the field and change it from the inside. If you don’t like it, do something to start change. Blogs are nice to express thoughts and that is needed but getting involved with change makes the real difference. Also one response to Mr. McKibben, pretty rude with the intelligence remark.
yeah, JK, I think you have a point on a lot of what you said. I’m sure there are good counselors with pure motives around (probably the majority).
The only thing that I differ about enough to respond is the good and righteous question.
Is there a difference? not the way I define them. I guess I would use Romans 3 as my proof text. A human is not a good person who makes bad decisions, a human is a bad person who makes the only decisions that he knows how to make which are bad ones.
I know you mentioned that God saw that man was good, but that was pre-fall. Can you imagine God looking at Adam after he ate of the forbidden tree and announcing him good? He would cease to be a righteous God if He called something sinful good without a payment. The Adam in Genesis 1 is not the same Adam in Genesis 4. We are not the same people now that we were in Genesis 1 so I don’t think we have the freedom to make those parallels.
I’ve had several counselors tell me this about God declaring man good and therefore man is good. I guess that this is how Christian counselors give humans a sense of worth. But why is a sense of worth needed? If I am worth anything, then God must be losing something if I go to hell. That’s not true. I’ve heard a therapist tell me that Jesus is not coming to the earth to die for garbage. I disagree. I think that’s what makes the cross of Christ beautiful. He did die for garbage. The only worth I have in myself is that Christ loves me. Not because I’m good, but because He wants to love.
Isn’t the gospel of Jesus Christ wonderfully beautiful…
I think that may be why the gospel that the world would have you believe is so disgusting and prideful.
I think one thing I would reiterate is that Jessica made some good points on her post as have you Nathan. And I know that both of you are in fact trying to make a difference from the inside.
I think Jessica’s clarification on the fact that when we’re evaluating ’secular counselors’ we have to be careful about lumping them all together. And Im pretty sure Nathan wouldnt say its true for each and every secular counselor anyway.
I do however think the discussion you’re on right now is an important one. Nathan is saying that there is a predominant trend in secular counseling to start from a completely wrong philosophy about the nature of man, which in turn throws methodology off and consequently results. (though I would clarify to say that I dont think you would run out of clients completely [see your first comment] because people are sinful, which is what we believe and therefore the counselor wont ever have perfect results, but I would agree that if they started with the right foundation they would have far more success by wordly stadards and far more true and lasting success by biblical ones)
Anyway, Ive probably been sloppy in what Ive said because Im tired and need to go to bed. But one thing I wanted to add is that I think maybe you and Jessica could clarify what you mean more, because knowing Jessica like I do and having talked to her about her beliefs a lot and you about yours, I know you both agree on the depravity of man. So theres some confusion in terms of something going on there. I would like to hear Jessica clear up what she means a little bit more. Anyway, it would be a good discussion. Jessica, if you read this…..hi, I hope you’re doing well. Nathan, see ya tomorrow Lord willing. Peace.
Sir, do you have a backbone or do you just agree with everyone?
I dont agree with you. How’s that.
You know its just as dangerous to display an attitude that wants to disagree with everyone all the time because you think you’re only person in the world that could be right as it is to display an attitude that wants to agree with everyone all the time.
I will DISAGREE with you strongly (I think you’re wrong. How’s that. wrong wrong wrong) that I agree with everyone.
But when i know the two people involved personally and know where both of them stand and can bring clarification out of the situation, then Im gonna do it. Paul said to make peace at all times when possible on our parts and Jesus said blessed are the peace makers, And when I can bring people together, especially when theres no reason for them to disagree because they both beleive the same thing, they just got sloppy in the way they wrote and interpreted each other, then Im gonna do it.
You have your answer then. Guess theres no agreement on that one.
My backbone is just fine.
that wasnt me, just so you know josh…but i would have to agree with the biblical approach(and yes, i know thats what everyone says). i think we must point to the depravity of man and how we so easily muddy the water, so to speak, when we address counseling because we want to be accepted by up-to-date sciencetist and analysts that say that everything is due to a ‘medical malfunction’..i am very ignorant of this subject but i would think that most counselors (who claim to be christians) have somewhat felt left out in the secular ‘counseling world’ and know feel they must adapt to be accepted and taken literal..so they forget the way God handled things in the Bible and look to more ‘innovative’ ways to dealing with these problems, mixed with a enough chrisianity to make it look christian….again, i am very very ignorant of this subject, so this is only what i think as of today..
good points, I agree with the biblical approach as well.
What needs to be clarified Josh and Nathan? The question of good an d righteaous being different. Let me know and I will clarify what I am saying. Josh- I’m doing great! Hope you are as well. Nathan- hope things are well with you also!!
(Im sorry but this is extremely long, but you both know how I am.)
Hi Guys…or guy and girl.
Ive thought about this and since I dont want to be guilty of misinterpreting anyone else. I figure its better for you to misinterpret me if any misinterpreting is going to go on. So, Im going to write my perspective on this and then see if the two of you or anyone else agrees or disagrees with it. Because I think the two are you are talking about different definitions of the word “good” because you both obviously believe in the sinfulness of man.
So, Im going to write what I think is the issue and if you disagree, then let me know.
My personal opinion and I think it is the testimony of Scripture that it is wrong to apply a status of “good” onto a counselee (is that what you call them Jess?) if it is used in a way that denotes or seems in any way to confirm that person’s status before God as being just fine and dandy.
It is one thing in my mind to say that a person has value and worth in this world and they matter and what they do matters in the grand scheme of things, etc. …and to say basically that “God is ok with you” when he is really not.
We have to be careful with our usage of the word “good” because what some tend to do is use the words “good” and “God” in phrases that tell people a lie about their status towards God with reference to salvation. Good and Righteous can be interchangeable sometimes in the human interpretation of our state before God. So the danger is that sometimes telling a person that God thinks they’re good comes out in their mind as saying that God is ok with me….when that is contrary to the gospel of course.
However, because Man is made in the image of God I believe that man is capable of doing and being and portraying some of those characteristics that are in line with that image. I know that the image is broken because of sin. But the teaching of the depravity of man does not mean that we are depraved as we can be nor have we become something other than the image of God. We are the image of God, somehow broken.
In my mind this actually compounds our deservedness of judgment because we arent just cats or dogs that have sinned against God, but we are Frankensteins (thanks Tony Evans) made in the image of our creator and given the gift of life but utterly sinful because we take that life and rebel against the creator.
What does that matter you ask? Well it leads me to believe that humans are not “good” in the eyes of God as far as pleasing him(because they dont operate out of faith and it is impossible to please God without faith) and they are not “good” as far as their status before God …..unless they are united with Christ.
But, becuase we are made in the image of God, we can still do some of those things that are commonly called “good” according to that image because that image must necessarily bring forth good if it is of God. God doesnt see it as good though because it is tainted with sin. All our righteousness is as filthy rags.
But society and the world can see our works as good. And indeed, there are many lost people who can “be good” and “do good” in this world and according to the worlds standards. People can give money to charity, love thier kids, fight for their country,etc.
These things dont make the people’s standing right before God, but many of the things they do can be far better for themselves and society than not doing them, therefore those works can be called good….according to soceity.
Just as people who dont know the Lord can go farther and farther down that chain of depravity with more “visibly” grievous and heinous sins ….on the same account I believe that through various means they can go up the scale of depravity (as far as heinous and grievious sins against society and themselves go.)
So, you can have a mass murderer on one hand and a prideful middleclass businessman who isnt trying to kill anybody and tries to be a good father to his kids on the other.
Both are sinners in the eyes of God and both will get the punishment of hell and both equally “bad” before God because they will not repent and turn from their sin put their faith in Christ.
But on the other hand, I think we can say the businessman is good in relation to the murderer being bad.
There is “social good” which we can encourage and grow people towards. I can tell someone that they can be good with reference to this and be telling the truth.
But I cant tell them they’re “good” before God with regards to their relationship with him.
Maybe I could say God thinks they have worth because they’re made in his image (though the discussions still out on that one…i.e. Nathan and I are having a discussion about that) …But I cant ever biblically tell them something like “God thinks you have worth and value therefore everything is fine between you”. I would have to convey somehow that even though they have the worth of a human being made in the image of God, that they’re destined for hell and deserving of it because they’ve totally rebelled against the one who created them that way and they are blaspheming His image every second of their lives. (thats my thought at least)
So, all that to say there is good from society’s point of view(which people can improve with regards to) and good as far as our standing before God(and maybe some other definition I havent thought of)…but regardless we have to work hard make the definition clear to those we’re talking to.
I can tell someone they can be good, or they have worth or value or skills or capabilities or talents or a whole other range of things that can help them improve upon their status and goodness in society and their functioning in it, but I cant every confuse that by giving them the wrong impression about their status before God.
And my personal belief is that I also need to avoid telling them that they arent capable of any good in this world becuase that could lead to them using that as a fatalistic excuse for being bad. I hear that kind of talk all the time. “This is who I am”. “I cant change this about me”.
…No you dont want to change. (And I know they can’t want to change (in a righteous way) apart from conviction and work of the Spirit[does that make me a calvinist? :)], but Im only emphasizing the locus of their blame. The blame is to be found in their desires.) They dont want to change. They ARE physically capable of good and accurately portraying the image of God to the fullest that God intended, but they dont want to. The depravity takes action at the point of desires…(it affects that area for sure anyway)
Anyway, I know those last two paragraphs were sloppy, I’ll try to think about how to put all of that better. But my point is I think we can expect some sorts of social and personal reform in people and because they have those capabilities they can be called good in a sense or capable of good. But those reforms amount to nothing in the eyes of God when it comes to me being “good” with him even though they’d be somewhat good for everyone else.
Do you agree with that or disagree??
Be blessed friends,
Josh
Basically, all Im saying that it seems like what we’re dealing with are two different definitions of the word “good” and I think both can be right if used properly….
JB -I disagree
I think you compromised truth for friendship.
You are trying to argue that people can do things that are accepted by the culture as good. That’s not what Jessica said. She said that she believes that the alcoholic is good but not righteous. She also said that she believes that God gives consequences for sin but looks at the true heart of a person. You are defending her saying that she meant “culturally good” and this doesn’t seem to be her intention.
JK -sorry I’m a jerk.
Maybe we do agree and I’m just not getting it. This is an important issue and we need to work things out about the goodness of man. I would call on Scriptures like Jeremiah 17:9, Psalm 14, Romans 3, Job 15:15-16, Psalm 51:4 to say that man is not good, and he is not good at the heart.